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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Can we just agree that nuyen costs for magical equipment, foci in particular, should be based on Force^2, rather than Force? Everything else that adds dice to tests has costs that increase quadratically (if not exponentially); so too should Foci.

Maybe Karma costs should rise quadratically as well.

Jury is still out on lodge materials, ward materials, hermetic libraries/circle components/summoning ingredients.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:16 pm 
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rebaseline them so they aren't based on something times $10,000 and we can talk :)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Force ^2 * 20,000Y, then? :D

The thing is, except for Sustaining Foci, even low-Force foci are powerful and useful; extra dice to spells are pretty good, and these days money is relatively easy to get. So, unless we change the cash situation (hint hint!) foci should be expensive.

Just think of it as inflation. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:25 pm 
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The issue of foci base cost once again comes down to the range of starting incomes for characters, as well as the expected per-run earning power of the runners. Your million-nuyen deckers, riggers, and cybersams, by the nature of their creation and continuing nuyen requirements, will inevitably imply large payouts for mages; if foci are too cheap then they'd be no-brainer purchases for all mages, all the time, and would probably make them too powerful. Making foci hideously expensive is the primary mechanism for SR3 to balance them.

Essentially it boils down to: what else do mages have to spend money on? :D

OTOH, I suppose if we did lower foci costs we could still tighten up Focus Addiction to re-balance foci. Still curious how that would pan out.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:43 pm 
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I understand that, but if you have F^2 * 20k, that quickly reaches 6 or even 7 digits. At that level, characters should be buying beta-level cyberware and SOTA decks. Is that equivalent to a single force 5 focus?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:24 pm 
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The Force^2 x 20k was mostly a joke; thus the :). Exact costs for everything seem to be in flux at the moment, as seen in Design Philosophies forum, but I just wanted to get it out of the way that the cost basis for Foci in particular should be quadratic rather than linear.

Then there's Sustaining Foci. The way they work right now is unfortunate, because they are, per unit of Force, so much less useful than any of the other foci. This will become a problem if we rely more on Focus Addiction to balance foci; we want Sustaining Foci to be a useful choice, not obviously lame when compared to say Power Foci. Maybe if they could sustain one spell per unit of Force, and it was impossibly to have two Sustaining Foci active on the same person simultaneously?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Ah, then I'm agreed. Foci costs should be quadratic.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Eyeless Blond wrote:
Making foci hideously expensive is the primary mechanism for SR3 to balance them.

Well, that and the karma cost to bind them.

Eyeless Blond wrote:
Then there's Sustaining Foci. The way they work right now is unfortunate, because they are, per unit of Force, so much less useful than any of the other foci.

I'm not sure I agree; there are a number of Sustained spells that are currently excessively powerful at low Force, and some very solid spells at high Force. There might be a bit of a gap from F3 to F5.

(Also, their cost per unit of Force is very low; lower than all other non-Expendable focus types, and half the price of the next-cheapest)

~J

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Failure: when your best just isn't good enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Kagetenshi wrote:
Eyeless Blond wrote:
Making foci hideously expensive is the primary mechanism for SR3 to balance them.

Well, that and the karma cost to bind them.
True, but that needs to be there regardless as mages will always have more money than they know what to do with, no matter what change we make to the chargen and post-chargen cost systems.

Quote:
Eyeless Blond wrote:
Then there's Sustaining Foci. The way they work right now is unfortunate, because they are, per unit of Force, so much less useful than any of the other foci.

I'm not sure I agree; there are a number of Sustained spells that are currently excessively powerful at low Force, and some very solid spells at high Force. There might be a bit of a gap from F3 to F5.
Mostly these are broken: F1 Invisibility is because max successes aren't currently limited to Force (or even Force * 2), and Increase Reflexes I/II/III/Increase Reaction should be a single spell--Increase Reflexes--which adds Force in Reaction plus Force / 2 in Initiative Dice.

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(Also, their cost per unit of Force is very low; lower than all other non-Expendable focus types, and half the price of the next-cheapest)
Yes, exactly my point. As I said, if we move away from cost as the primary balance mechanism and instead go with Focus Addiction, which uses the foci's Force instead of an individual nuyen cost, then we have to either make Sustaining Foci more useful per unit Force or we have to make their Force less impactful than the Force of, say, a Power Foci


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