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 Post subject: Bonding.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Well, as someone who's enchanted (Ha! Ha!) with the rules for the creation of foci, I thought I'd mention a quick thought I had regarding the first bonding costs.

My first thought, looking at that table, was "How the HECK do non-shadowrunner talismongers get by?!" I mean, seriously, a weapon focus costs a good 8x the force to bond! Given the expenditure of energy on the part of runners to get the amount of Karma that they do, I really have to wonder how even the smaller foci get made. Anything force 3 or above is costing at least 6 Karma. Karma isn't only gained via shadowruns, but I doubt that a shopkeeper who spends his life gathering materials. refining radicals, and designing foci forumale is making a whole lot more.

So, I saw two ways around this. The first, obviously, is limit the karma cost associated with the first bonding. This makes it easier on the enchanter to make a focus for sale later, rather than having to have a paying customer lined up before creating the focus. However, this raises the possibility of imbalance, with players getting enchanting skills just to grab up that reduced Karma cost.

The second is to eliminate the need for a first bonding entirely. The focus lies dormant, fully created, awaiting only a master. If the enchanter wises to bond it for his/her own use, they get a Karma discount (having crafted it themselves), but they are not required to do so as part of the Enchanting process.

I think I prefer the second option myself. It means that an enchanter doesn't ALWAYS need to have a special order for a focus in order to create one, but rather can create one simply to practice (and enjoy) his art, selling the work later. Not to mention that this opens up all sort of plot possibilities(Can someone accidentally bond a focus by simply touching it? What happens if they don't have enough karma? Is that where the legends of "cursed" weapons came from?).

What do you guys think?


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:00 pm 
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So you want to eliminate the cost of making foci, on the justification that NPCs don't have a lot of karma to spare?

Speaking for myself, I don't find the argument compelling enough to bother with the change, since it could make foci a lot less expensive for the PCs (and I don't especially care if NPCs have to pay a bit more for their stuff - they're NPCs! They have exactly as much karma as the GM wants them to have). Honestly, it might make a little more sense to refine how people get karma from non-Shadowrun work, rather than rework the foci creation rules, since the former will come up again later, while the latter seems pretty stable from a game-play perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Not the cost of making foci. Even the karma cost is still there, it just isn't laid at the feet of the creator to "activate" the focus.

You might be right about the karma from non-shadowrun work, but if NPCs are making far more karma than the players, it could be a point of frustration for them.

And from a player-enchanter's standpoint, it pretty much makes it completely impractical to make a focus that isn't being melded with 50 units of Orichalcum. They're better off just buying a focus made (and bonded) by an NPC, which takes away a lot of the fun of making your own focus from scratch.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:45 am 
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I'm uncertain. Resale value is high for foci, but then at the moment that applies simply to creation of radicals and orichalcum to begin with. Consequently, while it feels risky, it's a risk that we'd need to fix a bunch of other holes to make meaningful, though I am hoping we can somehow fix them.

The other option is to reevaluate how common foci are, but that'd require some substantial changes to the Availabilities and some reevaluation of a bunch of other stuff. I guess I'm tentatively in favour?

~J

_________________
Failure: when your best just isn't good enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:58 am 
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Ah, I see. I think the karma expenditures of that first step are in the spirit of the world. Just to grab an example, in Kill Bill when Bea gets her Matsumoto sword, he clearly has worked very hard on it and even imbued it with a piece of him - hence why they're Matsumoto swords. If he had turned over that karma expenditure to her, it would have been a Bea sword, not a Matsumoto sword.

I could see creating a process of taking karma from another source for that purpose, but it would incur additional time and expense. Alternatively, you could go dutch on karma costs, if the new owner invests some time in the creation. I could also see allowing the purchase of karma with cash in that particular case. But I couldn't see completely taking the creator out of that equation without it changing the spirit behind the creation of foci.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:57 pm 
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I like the idea of "going dutch" on first bonding, but really I think we need to re-evaluate the formulae for first bonding and enchantment costs in detail. More on this when I get back to my books.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonding.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Okay, so looking up the rules for foci it doesn't look too bad; basically you add 2 x Force to the Karma cost of every focus for first bonding, but you lower that by, well, spending money, and making an Enchanting skill roll. I'm sort of wondering why we don't just split the cost in half: make an Attuning step that costs 2 x Force, minus all those mods for materials and such, that finalizes the focus and makes it available for bonding, then the bonding step itself which costs the same as it always does.


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